AllianceBernstein Holding L.P. is publicly owned investment manager. The firm also provides research services to its clients. It provides its services to investment companies, pension and profit sharing plans, banks and thrift institutions, trusts, estates, government agencies, charitable organizations, individuals, corporations, and other business entities. The firm invests in public equity, fixed income, and alternative investment markets across the globe. It employs long/short strategy to make its investments. The firm conducts in-house research to make its investments. AllianceBernstein Holding L.P. was founded in 1987 and is based in New York, New York.
IPO Year: n/a
Exchange: NYSE
Website: alliancebernstein.com
| Date | Price Target | Rating | Analyst |
|---|---|---|---|
| 8/27/2024 | $35.00 | Equal Weight | Barclays |
| 1/4/2024 | $36.00 | Outperform | TD Cowen |
| 10/3/2023 | $40.79 → $36.75 | Neutral → Buy | Goldman |
| 9/5/2023 | $36.00 → $47.00 | Neutral → Buy | BofA Securities |
| 2/13/2023 | $32.00 → $43.50 | Neutral → Outperform | Credit Suisse |
| 10/19/2022 | $28.00 | Neutral | Credit Suisse |
| 9/7/2022 | $45.00 | Neutral | BofA Securities |
| 1/12/2022 | $62.00 → $64.50 | Buy | Citigroup |
| 10/26/2021 | $55.00 → $61.00 | Buy | Citigroup |
| 8/2/2021 | $44.00 → $54.50 | Neutral → Buy | Citigroup |
8-K - ALLIANCEBERNSTEIN HOLDING L.P. (0000825313) (Filer)
8-K - ALLIANCEBERNSTEIN HOLDING L.P. (0000825313) (Filer)
10-Q - ALLIANCEBERNSTEIN HOLDING L.P. (0000825313) (Filer)
8-K - ALLIANCEBERNSTEIN HOLDING L.P. (0000825313) (Filer)
8-K - ALLIANCEBERNSTEIN HOLDING L.P. (0000825313) (Filer)
8-K - ALLIANCEBERNSTEIN HOLDING L.P. (0000825313) (Filer)
8-K - ALLIANCEBERNSTEIN HOLDING L.P. (0000825313) (Filer)
10-Q - ALLIANCEBERNSTEIN HOLDING L.P. (0000825313) (Filer)
8-K - ALLIANCEBERNSTEIN HOLDING L.P. (0000825313) (Filer)
8-K - ALLIANCEBERNSTEIN HOLDING L.P. (0000825313) (Filer)
Innovative portfolios combining individual stocks and bonds in one holistic tax-managed SMA NASHVILLE, Tenn., Nov. 19, 2024 /PRNewswire/ -- AllianceBernstein L.P. ("AB") (NYSE:AB), a leading global investment management firm, has launched the AB Tax Advantaged Balanced Direct Index portfolio, combining equities and municipal bonds into a core separately managed account. AB will provide a multi-asset solution within a single account — custom tailored to client tax situation and risk preferences — to deliver benefits to investors. This includes automated tax loss harvesting across both stocks and bonds in addition to AB Intelligent Rebalancing, which seeks to reduce the tax costs associated w
NASHVILLE, Tenn., Nov. 13, 2024 /PRNewswire/ -- AllianceBernstein L.P. ("AB") (NYSE:AB), a leading global investment management firm, today announced plans to expand its insurance business through a non-exclusive partnership with Reinsurance Group of America, Incorporated ("RGA") (NYSE:RGA). AB has been named as one of the lead investors in Ruby Reinsurance Company ("Ruby Re"), a reinsurance sidecar vehicle sponsored by RGA and focused on the U.S. asset-intensive market. As part of this transaction, AB intends to manage private alternative assets for RGA's general account. AB's investment in Ruby Re represents a significant milestone in the firm's continued goal of leadership within insuran
Reinsurance Group of America, Incorporated (NYSE:RGA), a leading global life and health reinsurer, announced today that Ruby Reinsurance Company (Ruby Re), a Missouri-domiciled third-party life reinsurance company, has successfully closed a second round of funding, raising a total of $480 million in capital. The second round includes capital commitments from AllianceBernstein L.P. (AB) (NYSE:AB), EnTrust Global, and Enstar Group, among others, with AB appointing a member to the Ruby Re Board of Directors. Combined with the initial investments from Golub Capital, Hudson Structured Capital Management Ltd. (doing its re/insurance business as HSCM Bermuda), and Sammons Financial Group, Ruby Re'
NASHVILLE, Tenn., Nov. 12, 2024 /PRNewswire/ -- AllianceBernstein L.P. ("AB") and AllianceBernstein Holding L.P. ("AB Holding") (NYSE:AB) today announced that preliminary assets under management decreased to $793 billion during October 2024 from $806 billion at the end of September. The 2% decrease in month-end AUM was entirely driven by market depreciation, as firmwide net flows were flat in October. By channel, net inflows in Private Wealth and Retail were offset by Institutional net outflows. AllianceBernstein L.P. (The Operating Partnership) Assets Under Management ($ in Billions) At October 31, 2024 Sep 30, 2024 Private Institutions Retail Wealth Total Total Equity Actively Managed $ 5
GAAP Diluted Net Income of $1.12 per Unit Adjusted Diluted Net Income of $0.77 per Unit Cash Distribution of $0.77 per Unit NASHVILLE, Tenn., Oct. 24, 2024 /PRNewswire/ -- AllianceBernstein L.P. ("AB") and AllianceBernstein Holding L.P. ("AB Holding") (NYSE:AB) today reported financial and operating results for the quarter ended September 30, 2024. "AB's relentless commitment to delivering better investment outcomes continues to resonate with our clients globally," said Seth Bernstein, President and CEO of AllianceBernstein. "We registered our third consecutive quarter of organic gains while reaching approximately $806 billion in assets under management, buoyed by strong Equity and Fixed In
NASHVILLE, Tenn., Oct. 10, 2024 /PRNewswire/ -- AllianceBernstein L.P. and AllianceBernstein Holding L.P. (NYSE:AB) today announced that Third Quarter 2024 financial and operating results will be released before the market opens on Thursday, October 24, 2024. Management will conduct a teleconference beginning at 9:00 am (CT), to discuss the results. The call will be hosted by Seth Bernstein, President and Chief Executive Officer; Jackie Marks, Chief Financial Officer; Onur Erzan, Head of Global Client Group and Private Wealth; and Matthew Bass, Head of Private Alternatives. Parties may access the conference call by either webcast or telephone: To listen by webcast, please visit AB's Investo
NASHVILLE, Tenn., Oct. 9, 2024 /PRNewswire/ -- AllianceBernstein L.P. ("AB") and AllianceBernstein Holding L.P. ("AB Holding") (NYSE:AB) today announced that preliminary assets under management increased to $806 billion during September 2024 from $791 billion at the end of August. The 2% increase in month-end AUM was driven by market appreciation and net inflows into all three distribution channels - Retail, Institutions and Private Wealth. For the quarter-ended September 2024, preliminary firmwide net inflows totaled $0.9 billion. AllianceBernstein L.P. (The Operating Partnership) Assets Under Management ($ in Billions) At September 30, 2024 Aug 31, 2024 Private Institutions Retail Wealth
NASHVILLE, Tenn., Sept. 17, 2024 /PRNewswire/ -- AllianceBernstein L.P. ("AB") (NYSE:AB), a leading global investment management firm, today announced the launch of the AB CarVal Credit Opportunities Fund (ABAYX), an unlisted, closed-end interval fund. The Credit Opportunities Fund seeks to outperform high-yield bonds over time with less volatility and lower correlation to public markets. AB CarVal Principal John Withrow and AB CarVal Managing Director Roger Newkirk will oversee day to day investment decisions, supported by AB CarVal Managing Principals James Ganley, Jody Gunderson, and Lucas Detor. "Given the continued evolution in credit markets, we believe this strategy offers unique div
NASHVILLE, Tenn., Sept. 12, 2024 /PRNewswire/ -- AllianceBernstein L.P. ("AB") and AllianceBernstein Holding L.P. ("AB Holding") (NYSE:AB) today announced that preliminary assets under management increased to $791 billion during August 2024 from $777 billion at the end of July. The 2% increase was driven by market appreciation, partially offset by net outflows. By channel, Institutional net outflows outweighed Retail net inflows, while Private Wealth net flows were flattish. AllianceBernstein L.P. (The Operating Partnership) Assets Under Management ($ in Billions) At August 31, 2024 Jul 31, 2024 Private Institutions Retail Wealth Total Total Equity Actively Managed $ 55 $ 158 $ 55 $ 268
NASHVILLE, Tenn., Aug. 23, 2024 /PRNewswire/ -- AllianceBernstein Holding L.P. ("AB Holding") (NYSE:AB) today announced that its 2023 Schedule K-3, reflecting items of international tax relevance, is now available for download online. AB unitholders requiring this information may access their Schedules K-3 at www.taxpackagesupport.com/ab. A limited number of unitholders (primarily foreign unitholders, unitholders computing a foreign tax credit on their tax return and certain corporate and/or partnership unitholders) may need the detailed information disclosed on Schedule K-3 for their specific reporting requirements. To the extent Schedule K-3 is applicable to an investor's federal income t
4 - ALLIANCEBERNSTEIN HOLDING L.P. (0000825313) (Issuer)
4 - ALLIANCEBERNSTEIN HOLDING L.P. (0000825313) (Issuer)
4 - ALLIANCEBERNSTEIN HOLDING L.P. (0000825313) (Issuer)
4 - ALLIANCEBERNSTEIN HOLDING L.P. (0000825313) (Issuer)
4 - ALLIANCEBERNSTEIN HOLDING L.P. (0000825313) (Issuer)
4 - ALLIANCEBERNSTEIN HOLDING L.P. (0000825313) (Issuer)
4 - ALLIANCEBERNSTEIN HOLDING L.P. (0000825313) (Issuer)
4 - ALLIANCEBERNSTEIN HOLDING L.P. (0000825313) (Issuer)
3 - ALLIANCEBERNSTEIN HOLDING L.P. (0000825313) (Issuer)
3 - ALLIANCEBERNSTEIN HOLDING L.P. (0000825313) (Issuer)
GAAP Diluted Net Income of $1.12 per Unit Adjusted Diluted Net Income of $0.77 per Unit Cash Distribution of $0.77 per Unit NASHVILLE, Tenn., Oct. 24, 2024 /PRNewswire/ -- AllianceBernstein L.P. ("AB") and AllianceBernstein Holding L.P. ("AB Holding") (NYSE:AB) today reported financial and operating results for the quarter ended September 30, 2024. "AB's relentless commitment to delivering better investment outcomes continues to resonate with our clients globally," said Seth Bernstein, President and CEO of AllianceBernstein. "We registered our third consecutive quarter of organic gains while reaching approximately $806 billion in assets under management, buoyed by strong Equity and Fixed In
NASHVILLE, Tenn., Oct. 10, 2024 /PRNewswire/ -- AllianceBernstein L.P. and AllianceBernstein Holding L.P. (NYSE:AB) today announced that Third Quarter 2024 financial and operating results will be released before the market opens on Thursday, October 24, 2024. Management will conduct a teleconference beginning at 9:00 am (CT), to discuss the results. The call will be hosted by Seth Bernstein, President and Chief Executive Officer; Jackie Marks, Chief Financial Officer; Onur Erzan, Head of Global Client Group and Private Wealth; and Matthew Bass, Head of Private Alternatives. Parties may access the conference call by either webcast or telephone: To listen by webcast, please visit AB's Investo
GAAP Diluted Net Income of $0.99 per UnitAdjusted Diluted Net Income of $0.71 per UnitCash Distribution of $0.71 per Unit NASHVILLE, Tenn., July 26, 2024 /PRNewswire/ -- AllianceBernstein L.P. ("AB") and AllianceBernstein Holding L.P. ("AB Holding") (NYSE:AB) today reported financial and operating results for the quarter ended June 30, 2024. "AB performed well in the second quarter, as global equity markets continued their solid gains," said Seth P. Bernstein, President and CEO of AllianceBernstein. "AB posted active net inflows of $1.3 billion, or 1% active organic growth, despite continued active equity outflows. Our retail channel grew by 4% annualized organically, driven by strong growt
NASHVILLE, Tenn., July 12, 2024 /PRNewswire/ -- AllianceBernstein L.P. and AllianceBernstein Holding L.P. (NYSE:AB) today announced that Second Quarter 2024 financial and operating results will be released before the market opens on Friday, July 26, 2024. Management will conduct a teleconference beginning at 9:00 am (CT), to discuss the results. The call will be hosted by Seth Bernstein, President and Chief Executive Officer; Jackie Marks, Chief Financial Officer; and Onur Erzan, Head of Global Client Group and Private Wealth. Parties may access the conference call by either webcast or telephone: To listen by webcast, please visit AB's Investor Relations website at http://www.alliancebernst
GAAP Diluted Net Income of $0.67 per Unit Adjusted Diluted Net Income of $0.73 per Unit Cash Distribution of $0.73 per Unit NASHVILLE, Tenn., April 25, 2024 /PRNewswire/ -- AllianceBernstein L.P. ("AB") and AllianceBernstein Holding L.P. ("AB Holding") (NYSE:AB) today reported financial and operating results for the quarter ended March 31, 2024. "Global equity markets continued their strong gains in the first quarter, while bond market returns reflected a more cautious stance on inflation and interest rates," said Seth P. Bernstein, President and CEO of AllianceBernstein. "AB grew organically, led by active net inflows of $3.7 billion, or 2.3% active organic growth. Our retail channel grew
NASHVILLE, Tenn., April 11, 2024 /PRNewswire/ -- AllianceBernstein L.P. and AllianceBernstein Holding L.P. (NYSE:AB) today announced that First Quarter 2024 financial and operating results will be released after the market closes on Thursday, April 25, 2024. Management will conduct a teleconference on April 26, 2024, beginning at 9:00 am (CT), to discuss the results. The call will be hosted by Seth Bernstein, President and Chief Executive Officer; Jackie Marks, Chief Financial Officer; Onur Erzan, Head of Global Client Group and Private Wealth; and Mark Gessner, Head of US Retail. Parties may access the conference call by either webcast or telephone: To listen by webcast, please visit AB's
GAAP Diluted Net Income of $0.71 per Unit Adjusted Diluted Net Income of $0.77 per Unit Cash Distribution of $0.77 per Unit NASHVILLE, Tenn., Feb. 6, 2024 /PRNewswire/ -- AllianceBernstein L.P. ("AB") and AllianceBernstein Holding L.P. ("AB Holding") (NYSE:AB) today reported financial and operating results for the quarter and year ended December 31, 2023. "Equity and fixed income markets registered strong gains in 2023, aided by a robust fourth quarter rally as investors anticipated a shift in Fed policy to lower interest rates in 2024," said Seth P. Bernstein, President and CEO of AllianceBernstein. "In 2023 AB was among the beneficiaries of the early wave of fixed income allocations, wit
NASHVILLE, Tenn., Jan. 24, 2024 /PRNewswire/ -- AllianceBernstein L.P. and AllianceBernstein Holding L.P. (NYSE:AB) today announced that Fourth Quarter 2023 financial and operating results will be released after the market closes on Tuesday, February 6, 2024. Management will conduct a teleconference on February 7, 2024, beginning at 9:00 am (CT), to discuss the results. The call will be hosted by Seth Bernstein, President and Chief Executive Officer; Bill Siemers, Interim Chief Financial Officer; Onur Erzan, Head of Global Client Group and Private Wealth; and Matthew Bass, Head of Private Alternatives. Parties may access the conference call by either webcast or telephone: To listen by webca
NASHVILLE, Tenn., Oct. 12, 2023 /PRNewswire/ -- AllianceBernstein L.P. and AllianceBernstein Holding L.P. (NYSE:AB) today announced that Third Quarter 2023 financial and operating results will be released after the market closes on Thursday, October 26, 2023. Management will conduct a teleconference on October 27, 2023, beginning at 9:00 am (CT), to discuss the results. The call will be hosted by Seth Bernstein, President and Chief Executive Officer; Bill Siemers, Interim CFO; Karl Sprules, Chief Operating Officer; and Onur Erzan, Head of Global Client Group and Private Wealth. Parties may access the conference call by either webcast or telephone: To listen by webcast, please visit AB's In
GAAP Diluted Net Income of $0.53 per Unit Adjusted Diluted Net Income of $0.61 per Unit Cash Distribution of $0.61 per Unit NASHVILLE, Tenn., July 27, 2023 /PRNewswire/ -- AllianceBernstein L.P. ("AB") and AllianceBernstein Holding L.P. ("AB Holding") (NYSE:AB) today reported financial and operating results for the quarter ended June 30, 2023. "AB's results reflected generally risk-averse activity as markets transitioned into a higher-rate environment," said Seth P. Bernstein, President and CEO of AllianceBernstein. "That said, global equity markets continued their year-to-date rally, rising throughout the quarter. Net outflows were $4.0 billion, turning positive in May and June following Ap
NASHVILLE, Tenn., May 15, 2024 /PRNewswire/ -- AllianceBernstein L.P. (NYSE:AB), a leading global investment firm with $737 billion in assets under management, today announced that Bruce Holley has joined the firm's Board of Directors as an independent member. Mr. Holley's appointment is effective as of today, and he will sit on the Audit and Risk Committee. "As an accomplished financial services leader with 30 years of industry experience, we are pleased to add Bruce to our Board," said AB's President and CEO Seth Bernstein. "Bruce's extensive knowledge of the wealth and asset management industry, combined with his proven leadership, will help advance our firm forward." Mr. Holley is a Man
Firm introduces plans to expand existing team and services catering to UHNW clientele NEW YORK, Jan. 29, 2024 /PRNewswire/ -- Bernstein Private Wealth Management (Bernstein), a unit of AllianceBernstein L.P. (NYSE:AB), today announced the expansion of its Ultrahigh-Net-Worth (UHNW) Platform with an offering designed to help clients navigate the growing complexities of wealth and build a multigenerational legacy. Bernstein's UHNW Platform currently serves more than 1,290 individuals and families with an average client tenure of 12 years and more than $37.9 billion in total assets. With the renewed focus and expansion, the firm will continue to grow this client base by introducing bespoke sol
Leading research analyst joins from AllianceBernstein subsidiary Autonomous Research Equitable Holdings, Inc. (NYSE:EQH) today announced the appointment of Erik Bass as Head of Investor Relations, effective immediately. Bass will report to Robin M. Raju, Chief Financial Officer for Equitable Holdings, and serve on the company's Operating Committee. In this role, Bass will be responsible for communicating the company's strategy and financial performance as well as maintaining and expanding relationships with the investor and analyst communities. Bass joins the company after his seven-year tenure with AllianceBernstein's sell-side research subsidiary, Autonomous Research, where he served
NEW YORK, April 17, 2023 /PRNewswire/ -- Bernstein Private Wealth Management (Bernstein), a unit of AllianceBernstein L.P. (NYSE:AB), announced today the appointment of Alex Chaloff as Chief Investment Officer (CIO), Head of Investment and Wealth Strategies. Mr. Chaloff is responsible for directing the $113 billion Bernstein platform. In his role, Mr. Chaloff will lead a national team of strategists across investments and wealth planning, including asset allocation advice, investment platform oversight, model portfolio construction, new product development, manager research, tax planning and solutions, and estate planning research. He will be responsible for Bernstein's investment partnershi
Kate Burke now Chief Operating Officer and Chief Financial Officer; Onur Erzan now Head of Global Client Group and Head of Private Wealth NASHVILLE, Tenn. , July 6, 2022 /PRNewswire/ -- AllianceBernstein Holding L.P. (NYSE:AB) and AllianceBernstein L.P. ("AB"), a leading global investment management and research firm, today announced new leadership appointments for the firm. Kate Burke has been appointed Chief Financial Officer ("CFO"), effective immediately. She assumes this role while maintaining her role as Chief Operating Officer ("COO"). Ms. Burke has stepped down from her role as Head of Bernstein Private Wealth. Onur Erzan, AB's Head of Global Client Group, has been appointed Head of
NASHVILLE, Tenn., Sept. 27, 2021 /PRNewswire/ -- AllianceBernstein L.P. ("AB") and AllianceBernstein Holding L.P. ("AB Holding") (NYSE:AB) today announced that Todd Walthall has joined the board of directors at AllianceBernstein as an independent member. His appointment is effective as of September 21, 2021 and he will sit on the Audit and Risk Committee. "Todd brings to the board a deep expertise in the customer experience space having devoted a large portion of his career to understand how to best meet the needs of customers. I am confident his perspective will help to advance AB's business and culture," said Seth Bernstein, president and chief executive officer of AllianceBernstein. Mr.
Barclays initiated coverage of AllianceBernstein with a rating of Equal Weight and set a new price target of $35.00
TD Cowen initiated coverage of AllianceBernstein with a rating of Outperform and set a new price target of $36.00
Goldman upgraded AllianceBernstein from Neutral to Buy and set a new price target of $36.75 from $40.80 previously
BofA Securities upgraded AllianceBernstein from Neutral to Buy and set a new price target of $47.00 from $36.00 previously
Credit Suisse upgraded AllianceBernstein from Neutral to Outperform and set a new price target of $43.50 from $32.00 previously
Credit Suisse initiated coverage of AllianceBernstein with a rating of Neutral and set a new price target of $28.00
BofA Securities resumed coverage of AllianceBernstein with a rating of Neutral and set a new price target of $45.00
Citigroup reiterated coverage of AllianceBernstein with a rating of Buy and set a new price target of $64.50 from $62.00 previously
Citigroup reiterated coverage of AllianceBernstein Holding with a rating of Buy and set a new price target of $61.00 from $55.00 previously
Citigroup upgraded AllianceBernstein from Neutral to Buy and set a new price target of $54.50 from $44.00 previously
TD Cowen analyst Bill Katz maintains AllianceBernstein Holding (NYSE:AB) with a Buy and lowers the price target from $39 to $37.
On CNBC's “Mad Money Lightning Round,” Jim Cramer said he likes Pure Storage, Inc. (NYSE:PSTG), adding that it is a “fabulous” company. Pure Storage is expected to host a conference call on Wednesday, May 29 to discuss its financial results for the first quarter fiscal year 2025. “Anything connected with EVs right now is a no go,” Cramer said when asked about Albemarle Corporation (NYSE:ALB). On May 1, Albemarle reported mixed results for the first quarter. When asked about AeroVironment, Inc. (NASDAQ:AVAV), he said, “We've been behind AeroVironment forever, and the reason is that they make drones that are much less expensive than the other stuff the military buys.” On March 4
TD Cowen analyst Bill Katz maintains AllianceBernstein Holding (NYSE:AB) with a Buy and lowers the price target from $40 to $39.
B of A Securities analyst Craig Siegenthaler maintains AllianceBernstein Holding (NYSE:AB) with a Buy and lowers the price target from $54 to $51.
AllianceBernstein Holding (NYSE:AB) reported quarterly earnings of $0.73 per share which beat the analyst consensus estimate of $0.71 by 2.82 percent. This is a 10.61 percent increase over earnings of $0.66 per share from the same period last year. The company reported quarterly sales of $1.104 billion which beat the analyst consensus estimate of $902.782 million by 22.29 percent. This is a 7.81 percent increase over sales of $1.024 billion the same period last year.
AllianceBernstein Holding's (NYSE:AB) short percent of float has fallen 6.12% since its last report. The company recently reported that it has 1.04 million shares sold short, which is 0.92% of all regular shares that are available for trading. Based on its trading volume, it would take traders 2.9 days to cover their short positions on average. Why Short Interest Matters Short interest is the number of shares that have been sold short but have not yet been covered or closed out. Short selling is when a trader sells shares of a company they do not own, with the hope that the price will fall. Traders make money from short selling if the price of the stock falls and they lose if it rises. Short
AllianceBernstein Holding's (NYSE:AB) short percent of float has risen 6.67% since its last report. The company recently reported that it has 1.08 million shares sold short, which is 0.96% of all regular shares that are available for trading. Based on its trading volume, it would take traders 2.52 days to cover their short positions on average. Why Short Interest Matters Short interest is the number of shares that have been sold short but have not yet been covered or closed out. Short selling is when a trader sells shares of a company they do not own, with the hope that the price will fall. Traders make money from short selling if the price of the stock falls and they lose if it rises. Short
Evercore ISI Group analyst John Dunn maintains AllianceBernstein Holding (NYSE:AB) with a Outperform and raises the price target from $37 to $38.
AllianceBernstein Holding's (NYSE:AB) short percent of float has risen 6.67% since its last report. The company recently reported that it has 1.08 million shares sold short, which is 0.96% of all regular shares that are available for trading. Based on its trading volume, it would take traders 2.52 days to cover their short positions on average. Why Short Interest Matters Short interest is the number of shares that have been sold short but have not yet been covered or closed out. Short selling is when a trader sells shares of a company they do not own, with the hope that the price will fall. Traders make money from short selling if the price of the stock falls and they lose if it rises. Short